Perfectly, we have found Kens masterful scientific study towards bloodlines of Llewelyn Fawr and you will Joanna

Merely ‘Ellen’s’ label remains a mystery, around is apparently no-one entitled Ellen or Helen, but possibly an ‘Eleanor’ into the Joanna’s front (Eleanor out of Aquitaine, mommy out of Joanna’s dad Queen John)

Hello, folk. It’s it is fascinating; everything i won’t provides provided to get access to this post twenty-five years ago when i is actually comparing and creating Right here Feel Dragons!

The main reason for it exercising is to try, by the a peek at genealogist’s feedback about the subject by asking some recognized unique provide, to determine who was mom from Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Is she Joanna, wife from Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Produced circa.1188, died. March 1237) or are she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch from Rhos, mistress out of Llywelyn, born circa. 1168, died??

I am going to follow Serbisk kvinner som sГёker aman this with a holiday investigation on you can easily life out of a ded Susanna, provided out over King Henry 111 just like the an effective hostage from inside the 1228 along with her infant custody becoming supplied to help you Sir Nicholas Verdun and his wife Clementia.

New views of the Genealogists that i enjoys learnt are just one to, viewpoints, as well as disagree considerably. No certain research is available regardless, but have to say that almost all hold to have Gwladus becoming the latest child off Joanna. This is particularly true of the genealogists of one’s descendants off the latest De Braose friends, however they ily to-be tied to the Welsh and you can English royal properties!

The list following out-of Llywelyn’s numerous genuine and you will illegitimate youngsters appears getting essentially approved from the all the genealogists that i provides read except for differences more if or not no. 9 very lived. The newest schedules away from beginning down the page are debated by certain:

1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, created circa.1199, died 1244
2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, produced circa.1206, died 1251
3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1206? died circa 1253,
4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1208? died circa 1263,
5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince regarding Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about any of it time, find later on), passed away twenty five February 1246,
6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1209 died 1281.
7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1210, died 1257
8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – created circa 1210, you are able to twin in order to Angharad?
9. ‘Helen’, otherwise ‘Susanna’, created circa 1214? Passed away 1259?

You will find much argument along side label of your mothers of this type of people. There is certainly standard contract that the only particular college students off Llywelyn’s age Prince out-of Wales and Ellen (Helen) who partnered (1) John the fresh Scot, son of one’s earl from Chester and (2) Robert de Quincy. Even when thoughts try split across the moms and dads from Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and Susanna, all of the genealogists I have studied lean to the their mother are Joanna.

This can be partially making use of their heading schedules out-of birth because the really since their marriage ceremonies to different marcher lords whom, you to definitely supposes, would have sought for so you can make their houses compared to that of the neighbour, the fresh Prince off North Wales along with his partner, the fresh new king of England’s child. It is believed that these lords of one’s February wouldn’t experienced really attention otherwise political desire inside marrying from its sons into the illegitimate daughters of a good Welsh prince which have a great Welsh woman.

About what labels of them college students, if or not from the Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise others, these were most of the called immediately after members of Llywelyn’s friends:

Ken, the audience is completely on your obligations

Llywelyn’s mommy was titled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ of Gwynedd. Their paternal grandmother is titled ‘Gwladus’. The mother and father of his grandma Susanna, was ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you will ‘Angharad’ from Flint and both its names were given to Llywelyn’s people. So it Susanna as well as got a sister named ‘Gwenllian’, a comparable name due to the fact Llywelyn’s great grandmother.